hey guys, any thoughts on streetability for the big blocks above, its for a protoured 68 with a 383 tko600 and 373's, mini tubs, 4 link and dse frame connectors already. the 383 has ezfast efi on it which, if i can figure out the bugs would put on the big block. the car is really a sunday take it out for a spin kinda ride, maybe an occasional quartermile trip. im finding i dont really leave the car anywhere because its too easy to steal. trying to get opinions from people who have done it to see if they were happy with the engines. any help is appreciated
ejs4732
If you like the idea of a 454 the 502 is just more engine to love. The 454 is generally stroked out to a 496 with an added quarter inch of stroke. Same crank in a 502 gets you a 540 which can easily out put 700 horsepower and more torque than most rear ends this side of a Dana 60 or Olds rear can handle.
You can easily hit 700 hp with a blown or turbo powered LS-3 motor but it won't be any where as cheap or give you as many grins per mile as the 540. This is because of the difference between torque and horsepower. The 540 builds it's torque early outputting more power off idle than many 327's did flat out. It only builds power from there. Not as rapidly as the turbo powered car which takes a while to spool up then slams you in your seat for a moment that quickly ends because you can not run wide open throttle forever.
The big block is still pushing you back in your seat with the tires smoking for a block or two as power continues to build. Unlike the turbo if the cops will let you can hold it on the mat for as long as you have gas to keep it going as the bottom end is as massive as the rest of the motor all forged and cast iron. Gas will be an issue (it's relatively cheap now for swill but the price is still being elevated a bit for the 93 octane you will need to power this beast) and it is sucking it down so fast you can watch the needle move. Jay Lenno had a joke about his old Buick (It seats six; ... for dinner!) that was sucking up gas faster than the attendants could pump it into the tank.
That is the spirit of a big American V8.
Big Dave
You can easily hit 700 hp with a blown or turbo powered LS-3 motor but it won't be any where as cheap or give you as many grins per mile as the 540. This is because of the difference between torque and horsepower. The 540 builds it's torque early outputting more power off idle than many 327's did flat out. It only builds power from there. Not as rapidly as the turbo powered car which takes a while to spool up then slams you in your seat for a moment that quickly ends because you can not run wide open throttle forever.
The big block is still pushing you back in your seat with the tires smoking for a block or two as power continues to build. Unlike the turbo if the cops will let you can hold it on the mat for as long as you have gas to keep it going as the bottom end is as massive as the rest of the motor all forged and cast iron. Gas will be an issue (it's relatively cheap now for swill but the price is still being elevated a bit for the 93 octane you will need to power this beast) and it is sucking it down so fast you can watch the needle move. Jay Lenno had a joke about his old Buick (It seats six; ... for dinner!) that was sucking up gas faster than the attendants could pump it into the tank.
That is the spirit of a big American V8.
Big Dave
Agree with everything Dave said.
I just wanted to add if you go BBC, use aluminum heads to help the handling. They erase 75 pounds from the front.
If you can afford this 502 block from GM, buy it. You can use a mechanical fuel pump with it. http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Sportsman-Standard-Deck-Bare-Block-19212191-P10021C577.aspx
I prefer the BBC to the LS3 because I love original appearing cars. Some people slap chrome all over the engine bay but to me that's a turn-off. Love a sleeper with 396 decals.
It's not difficult to modify/modernize these cars and still keep them looking original.
I just wanted to add if you go BBC, use aluminum heads to help the handling. They erase 75 pounds from the front.
If you can afford this 502 block from GM, buy it. You can use a mechanical fuel pump with it. http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Sportsman-Standard-Deck-Bare-Block-19212191-P10021C577.aspx
I prefer the BBC to the LS3 because I love original appearing cars. Some people slap chrome all over the engine bay but to me that's a turn-off. Love a sleeper with 396 decals.
It's not difficult to modify/modernize these cars and still keep them looking original.
Go LS and you'll never go back.
The LS3/480 is the best bank for the buck. Add a ZL1 take off blower and you're 600 ho plus and will still get over 20 mpg.
I just bought an LS3/525 for my new build.
The LS3/480 is the best bank for the buck. Add a ZL1 take off blower and you're 600 ho plus and will still get over 20 mpg.
I just bought an LS3/525 for my new build.
Chris
If you can wait, in 3 months I'll be able to give you an HONEST opinion.
Engine history ... Full out pro touring 69" - 396 sold ... 468 BBC for a year then to a fully built roller 496 BBC (awesome power!! 625 Tq/620hp, scared the crap out of everyone, streetability all depends on cam selection and carb selection/setup. My cam was done by Chris Straub for 'my' car) ... sold the 496 and now I'm here ...
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=315930
I have never driven nor been in a resto-modded car with an LS setup but many guys like John above have and the results speak for themselves. I can't wait to try mine out in April. Unfortunately this is NOT a cheap way to go and cannot speak yet to whether the extra cost is worth it yet or not. If it was me though I would most definitely do a properly built 496 for 'your' car over a stock 502.
Cheers
Steve
If you can wait, in 3 months I'll be able to give you an HONEST opinion.
Engine history ... Full out pro touring 69" - 396 sold ... 468 BBC for a year then to a fully built roller 496 BBC (awesome power!! 625 Tq/620hp, scared the crap out of everyone, streetability all depends on cam selection and carb selection/setup. My cam was done by Chris Straub for 'my' car) ... sold the 496 and now I'm here ...
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=315930
I have never driven nor been in a resto-modded car with an LS setup but many guys like John above have and the results speak for themselves. I can't wait to try mine out in April. Unfortunately this is NOT a cheap way to go and cannot speak yet to whether the extra cost is worth it yet or not. If it was me though I would most definitely do a properly built 496 for 'your' car over a stock 502.
Cheers
Steve
An Ls swap can be inexpensive. An Ls swap can be the same cost or even less than building a sbc or even big block. The Ls has 6 bolt mains and very tough rods and pistons, guys slap on an 80mm turbo on jy motors and make 700who reliably. With heads and a cam in a stock Ls, after converting the frame stands, wiring, tank, computer, and sorting out trans issues, I would say the cost would be around the same as building up a big block. Ls's don't really need to be touched inside unless you are making big power imho.
A 468 with iron heads will get you where you want to be. You are hearing "stroke it" and "aluminum heads". Might be nice if you have the ca$h, but for an average FUN car, you can do it on a budget.
Good luck.
You can throw the "old school" argument out the window. You can dress an LS engine to look old school with a carb or a 4 barrel TB and an air cleaner. And you can relocate the coils off the valve covers if you want. I did.
Stock bottom end on a 6.0 LS junkyard truck engine, ported heads/cam/intake and it puts down over 450 to the rear wheels. Plenty for a cruiser. I love my LS engine!:yes:
Stock bottom end on a 6.0 LS junkyard truck engine, ported heads/cam/intake and it puts down over 450 to the rear wheels. Plenty for a cruiser. I love my LS engine!:yes:
Say what you like about LS motors....I went LS :yes:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449281&highlight=jyd
Over 650FWHP with a carb, cam, a small bump in compression, and a turbo...went 9's in the 1320.
Not too shabby and on the cheap.
My motor was a fresh build...about $4500 in parts and rebuild
Another $1000-1500 in swap parts.
Over 550FWHP....guessing. Still tuning.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449281&highlight=jyd
Over 650FWHP with a carb, cam, a small bump in compression, and a turbo...went 9's in the 1320.
Not too shabby and on the cheap.
My motor was a fresh build...about $4500 in parts and rebuild
Another $1000-1500 in swap parts.
Over 550FWHP....guessing. Still tuning.
YouTube the channel "sloppy mechanics" to learn about Ls builds on the cheap. The guy, Matt Happel really knows his stuff. A lot of good info on tips and tricks as well as tuning. The computers he uses from diyEFI are really good.
Junk yard Ls fox body with a th400 just went 6.97's in the 1/4.
That's faster than my neighbors 632 Chevelle that runs 8.11s and is pribably 10-15x the cost of the Ls fox.
Not doubting big blocks by any means, there are some really fast all iron 468's out there. My cousin actually has an all iron 468 in one of his dragsters, and a shafiroff 565 in another. Can't beat a big block in that case, but for pro touring, the Ls wins, efi, all aluminum unless tuck engine, the weight alone will be a big gain in handling performance.
Junk yard Ls fox body with a th400 just went 6.97's in the 1/4.
That's faster than my neighbors 632 Chevelle that runs 8.11s and is pribably 10-15x the cost of the Ls fox.
Not doubting big blocks by any means, there are some really fast all iron 468's out there. My cousin actually has an all iron 468 in one of his dragsters, and a shafiroff 565 in another. Can't beat a big block in that case, but for pro touring, the Ls wins, efi, all aluminum unless tuck engine, the weight alone will be a big gain in handling performance.
If you didn't have to call it "Pro-Touring" you could just rework the 383 for 475-500 HP pretty easily. You wouldn't be admitted to the club w/o an LS motor though. The fact that you don't have a T56 is almost grounds for disqualification too. (You can always give it a name and cobble together a "build thread" later)
I enjoy the smooth power offered by my little 324 cid LO9 (aka 5.3L) motor in my Silverado when paired with my smooth shifting 6L80e OD transmission. I really appreciate the mileage of killing four cylinders when on cruise control driving table flat Florida interstate roads. I also enjoy the variable cam phasing that allows a little engine to pour on power when I nail the throttle.
What I hate is the EFI and drive by wire that prevents me from leaving the light when I nail the throttle as it has to stick it's electronic finger up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing first. I do like the ability to burn anything found at the pump as I have a stainless steel tank and stainless steel fuel lines with twin knock sensors and wide band oxygen sensors called Flex-Fuel that is still an option that Chevrolet charges extra for as Chevy must think the ethanol law will be rescinded some time soon.
By comparison I had a similar vehicle that left the factory with a 350 (a ¾ ton K20 Suburban). It cracked the crank under the factory warranty while dragging a 5,460 pound trailer up a hill outside Franklin NC, and it was replaced at the local Buick dealership in NC with a brand new warranty Chevy 350 crate engine. When I got back I sold the 270 hp 350 back to my local dealership and bought a brand new Gen V 454. My mileage jumped from 6 mpg to 11 mpg. After I broke the rings in the number seven cylinder while overheating crawling through Atlanta during rush hour I pulled the 454 and replaced it with a ZZ502. I was able to compare the LQ9 to my 502 in a Suburban and the heavier suburban can still blow away a 5.3L at the strip and it can not pull a trailer up a hill without slipping into the semi lane while I can pass Toyotas and Hondas laboring up the hill while I am towing my camper trailer with my 502.
The difference is torque. The big block has more of it and makes it where you need it on the street down low in the RPM range. I don't doubt that a LS-x, blown or turboed, engine will turn in great times at the strip in a drag car. The question I ask is do you drive that six second drag car on the road every day? I crushed my 9.39 second street car because It became just too much effort to drive on the street every day (and I am tired of killing kids I sell my old cars to who want to find out how fast it will go). Though it would smoke street tires at the punch of the throttle at 70 mph on the interstate I got tired of it smoking the punch of the throttle at 70 mph on the interstate when I tried to pass someone like a cop doing 60 mph in the middle lane.
Big Dave
What I hate is the EFI and drive by wire that prevents me from leaving the light when I nail the throttle as it has to stick it's electronic finger up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing first. I do like the ability to burn anything found at the pump as I have a stainless steel tank and stainless steel fuel lines with twin knock sensors and wide band oxygen sensors called Flex-Fuel that is still an option that Chevrolet charges extra for as Chevy must think the ethanol law will be rescinded some time soon.
By comparison I had a similar vehicle that left the factory with a 350 (a ¾ ton K20 Suburban). It cracked the crank under the factory warranty while dragging a 5,460 pound trailer up a hill outside Franklin NC, and it was replaced at the local Buick dealership in NC with a brand new warranty Chevy 350 crate engine. When I got back I sold the 270 hp 350 back to my local dealership and bought a brand new Gen V 454. My mileage jumped from 6 mpg to 11 mpg. After I broke the rings in the number seven cylinder while overheating crawling through Atlanta during rush hour I pulled the 454 and replaced it with a ZZ502. I was able to compare the LQ9 to my 502 in a Suburban and the heavier suburban can still blow away a 5.3L at the strip and it can not pull a trailer up a hill without slipping into the semi lane while I can pass Toyotas and Hondas laboring up the hill while I am towing my camper trailer with my 502.
The difference is torque. The big block has more of it and makes it where you need it on the street down low in the RPM range. I don't doubt that a LS-x, blown or turboed, engine will turn in great times at the strip in a drag car. The question I ask is do you drive that six second drag car on the road every day? I crushed my 9.39 second street car because It became just too much effort to drive on the street every day (and I am tired of killing kids I sell my old cars to who want to find out how fast it will go). Though it would smoke street tires at the punch of the throttle at 70 mph on the interstate I got tired of it smoking the punch of the throttle at 70 mph on the interstate when I tried to pass someone like a cop doing 60 mph in the middle lane.
Big Dave
The other items that effect cost are:
Transmission and installation.....using th350 here...$0 (unless you count flex plate)
Fuel system upgrades, lines and fittings....carbed, $400 intake
Cooling system....Stock 68...$0
Swap Headers.....$400...but some go a lot higher
Accessories and brackets....stock LS braket, came with motor...$0 no Acc., re-used my Alternator.
ECU, wiring harness, O2 sensors, and tuning...not using, but MSD box to spark it $350
Air Intake and filter...One I was using on the SBC...$0
Plus a bunch of little things that add to the cost.
Swap motor mounts $50, TCI flex plate $400 (works with LS or SBC trans), and everything else a normal motor swap would need, hoses, wires, spark plugs, water pump, starter, ETC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EFI would be nice....but I didn't want to have to go to a tuner every time I changed something.
BUT....if you were just a weekend cruiser, EFI may be better for you and be more like your everyday driver.
ME....I like to tinker too much
Transmission and installation.....using th350 here...$0 (unless you count flex plate)
Fuel system upgrades, lines and fittings....carbed, $400 intake
Cooling system....Stock 68...$0
Swap Headers.....$400...but some go a lot higher
Accessories and brackets....stock LS braket, came with motor...$0 no Acc., re-used my Alternator.
ECU, wiring harness, O2 sensors, and tuning...not using, but MSD box to spark it $350
Air Intake and filter...One I was using on the SBC...$0
Plus a bunch of little things that add to the cost.
Swap motor mounts $50, TCI flex plate $400 (works with LS or SBC trans), and everything else a normal motor swap would need, hoses, wires, spark plugs, water pump, starter, ETC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EFI would be nice....but I didn't want to have to go to a tuner every time I changed something.
BUT....if you were just a weekend cruiser, EFI may be better for you and be more like your everyday driver.
ME....I like to tinker too much
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